Emma’s Story

Introducing my next guest… Emma 🤍

Emma’s story is one of unimaginable loss, strength, and resilience. She went into labour at just 24 weeks with her twin boys, and heartbreakingly, one of her babies didn’t make it. His name was Charlie.

In this episode, she opens up about the raw early days of grief, the time spent in NICU, and how she found the strength to keep going through it all. Her journey is deeply moving, and a powerful reminder of just how strong a mother can be.

Emma also shares how, after everything, she later welcomed her beautiful little girl,  a moment filled with so much love, hope, and healing.

TW: If today’s episode has affected you in any way, please be gentle with yourself and reach out for support if you need it:

• Samaritans: 116 123 (24/7, free)
• Sands: 0808 164 3332
•  Miscarriage Association: 01924 200 799 
• Tommy’s Midwives: 0800 014 7800
• Child Bereavement UK: 0800 02 888 4
• Cruse Bereavement Support:0808 808 1677

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello, I'm your host Leanne, and welcome to Motherhood Honestly, where we get rid about pregnancy, birth, and motherhood. The highs, the lows, and everything in between. Honest stories, messy moments, and sharing our journey together. In this episode, I'm sitting down with my good friend Emma. Emma's story is one of unimaginable loss, strength, and resilience. Emma went into labour at just 24 weeks with her twin boys, and heartbreakingly one of her babies didn't make it. His name was Charlie. In this episode, she opens up about her raw early days of grief, the times when Emma came, and how she found the strength to keep going through it all. Her journey is a deeply moving and powerful reminder of just how strong her mother can be. Emma also shares after everything she later welcomed her beautiful little girl a moment filled with so much love, hope, and healing. This episode is dedicated to our beautiful boy Charlie. Hello. Hello. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks. I've got you set over your Pepsi Max. Yeah, you have. You declined a cup of tea. You're one of these people that don't like hot drinks.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

A hot chocolate sometimes. Oh my hot chocolate. Only Christmas. Yeah, Christmas.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

If someone has a hot chocolate in the summer, it's like criminal. No. Um thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. I know this is going to be a tough one, but I feel like, and we've both just sort of said before that it's going to be really important. So I'm so grateful to have you here. But we'll start from the start. Talk to me first about how you met your husband, James.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Wow. Depends which time round. Which time?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Oh I didn't tell you this before. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

So we actually met at college. Yeah, we met at college. I was at Branbury College in Beauty.

unknown 1:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Don't ask me what he was doing, I can't remember. Brilliant. Probably something to do with sports, sports science or something. I feel like it was sports science. Um he's gonna listen to us and go now, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Um we'll find out Justin.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah. And um it was just for like free like parties and that.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Like we weren't like pals or anything. No. Did you like him at first? Were you just like No, not really. No, like not at all. We just went, I can't remember whose party it was. We were at a party and did he ask you about first? No, he didn't ask me how. I think we just had a bit too much to drink and a bit of a snog. Yeah, fair play. And then the next morning he tried to ask me if I wanted to go to the shop with him and I was like, no, you're right. And I was like, no. Absolutely. What technical that was, but that was it.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

And then you were kind of set in stone.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

So I guess um, and how long were you sort of together before you decided to have children? Because I know that you said to me that you he was really ready to start a family. You were like, nah, let's go on holiday.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah. Well, obviously he then started working at Dollar, which is obviously where we worked together. Yeah. Um so I tell him he tracked me down, he stalked me after all those years. Sounds like it, doesn't it? Yeah. Did he ask you to go to the shop on lunch? Did the garage across the road. Um no, I think we went out on a night out in town, but um Yeah, and then we yeah, we got together and then it was probably probably a year or so in, I think we I'm trying to think, we went to Mexico and that's when the conversation happened. That was in between our 30th, so I turned 30, he was going to turn 30.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

And I was like, oh, I always want to get married first, um, have a few more holidays. I was really like, I want to have the same last name as my children. Yeah. So that's why I wanted to get married first. Yeah. Obviously, I just turned 30. He was turning 30.

SPEAKER_02 3:47

It's a big thing, isn't it, when you hit 30. You spend all your 20 trying to avoid getting pregnant, and then you spend all your 30s trying to get pregnant.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah. Literally. Well saying that I didn't because I you fell pregnant very, very quickly. Very quickly. Yeah. Tell me about that. So I think it was conversation, right? Yeah, so I think I also had to stay on pip the pill for a little bit because of the is it Zika virus or something in Mexico?

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

So we had to be like clear of that, not I didn't have it, but obviously so long after being in the country. So I think it was like the end of April, I came off the pill, and um I think by the end of May I was pregnant. Oh my goodness, yeah. Bam, bam, bam, done. Literally, yeah. Go on, James. Yeah, he likes to take all the credit, but yeah, I'll let him have that one. Um, but yeah, and that was kind of it. And I was like, oh my god, like I probably had months to prepare for like I thought six months of trying, like that's what they say, don't they?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Like, you can take a while, especially if you've been on like a conception for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

For a long time, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Oh my gosh, so how how did you feel?

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Oh, I just remember sitting there.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Did you how did you know?

SPEAKER_01 4:56

Did you feel any like symptoms or yeah, like I was at clockwork with my period, so I was like, I'm late. So he was working, um I think it was on eight o'clock, and he worked in Oxford at the time. And I was like, Oh, you know less people than me where you work, so if you can make a um pregnancy test on your lunch and bring it home. So I waited until he got home. Um well I didn't just Amazon Prime anything, I guess we go about seven years, it wasn't as big then, was it?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

No, it probably wasn't. To be fair, I mean four years ago, well hold on, three years ago, I told Tottie to go to boots on his lunch. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I was like, Oh, you would just need it then, we didn't lean next day, we needed like same day delivery, yeah. Right, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, so did the test, the lines come up straight away.

unknown 5:38

Didn't they?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

And I wasn't showing him it, I thought it was I remember being sat behind him and he could just suddenly see my hand just shaking. And I was like, um, um, where's the instructions again?

SPEAKER_02 5:50

I know, because you have to double check the box, don't you? Pregnant on one.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Yeah, so then I was like, right, we're going to Tesco's, like I need one of those ones that's that's pregnant. Oh, that says like the one. Yeah, so I need a digital one. Yeah, pregnant, yeah. So yeah. So yeah, no time to really mentally prepare myself. It was just it happened.

SPEAKER_02 6:13

Did you tell your parents like straight away?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

We didn't tell a soul.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

Did you not?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

No, we were like, we're not telling anyone for the first 12 weeks. Yeah. Um I can't remember the reason. I think I think we just wanted to have it to ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 6:24

Yeah, do you know what? Yeah, yeah. It's such a special I'm sorry if you can all hear my child crying upstairs. My husband's trying to get her to bed. Um it's such a special time though, because again, you want to keep it like just for you. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess you got to your 12 weeks and had your scan and there was a little surprise waiting, wasn't there?

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Yeah, it was actually I had some bleeding. Okay. And um it was like four days before my 12-week scan. Yeah. So you think the worst, don't you?

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Went to the doctors and they were like, oh, yeah, you're gonna have to go to the John Radcliffe.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

Um, could be a miscarriage, could be ectopic pregnancy. So we were like, fantastic. Just the words you don't care, is it? Yeah, and that drive to the John Radcliffe is horrible anyway, yeah. So it was quite a miserable drive. And um, we got there and they checked me over, and then they're like, Oh, we will do a scan, but you might have to wait a few hours. So we went and sat out in the the green outside the hospital, and then they called me and said, Yeah, we're ready to give you a scan. And um, as soon as they put that on me, obviously, I've never had a scan before.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

Um in my head, I was like, definitely just in two. I was like, Well, I don't know what I'm looking at, and then straight away she was like, Oh, there's two, yeah. And I just looked him, I'm you know what I mean. I just you're laughing through like if I don't laugh, I'm gonna cry. That's the most nervous laugh I've probably ever had in my life. Um obviously it's really nice. What did James say? I don't do I don't remember, I just remember us both laughing and being like, oh my god. No, so they were non-identical, so separate sex, separate placenters. We were told at our scan that was the safest kind of twins.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Which we were like, cool.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Um bit of false hope there, really, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Pretty much, yeah. Um you know, you some you kind of think twins are they'll be here early. Like that's all I ever had in my head was they're gonna be here early.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, but you're not gonna get to like the full term of 40 weeks.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Early, I thought I mean 35, 36 weeks. I remember saying to my friends, like you know, plan my baby shower at like 28, 30 weeks, just in case. Um yeah, the next day I I don't know what time I was away, it was like crack of dawn, and my mind was in overdrive. I was thinking, my god, nursery fees, oh my god, double buggy, am I gonna fit that through my front door?

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Everything that you worry about, you're now double.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

You've got to think about everything you're yeah, and my head was spinning, and then James woke up and he was like, Are you okay? I was like, No, no, I'm not okay. Yeah, so he was like, right, let's go tell everyone that'll make you feel better. Let's get it out there so you've got people to talk to.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

So how did your family react? Were they shocked?

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yeah, like we didn't tell them it was twins, we just so what I did was um I think it was James's mum kept saying, Oh, I need a photo of you two in the house. So, and my mum was the same, didn't really have any photos of us both. So we put the scan picture amongst a load of photos of me and James and just said, Oh, we've bought some photos for you to pick to have up of us in the house. So as they were going through them, they landed on this scan, and obviously you've got the initial shock of oh my god, you're having a baby. I just remember my mum looking again. Oh my god, there's two. So we didn't like say to them, Oh, we're having twins. We wanted them to really look at that scan picture and figure it out, which is quite nice because it was like double surprise.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Do you think maybe that's why when you did your um test it came up like really dark?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Possibly, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

So you're pregnant with twins, you've had your 12 weeks, everything was okay. Yeah, and how did the rest of the pregnancy go up until the point fine, like other than being tired? Yeah, um those early days are rough, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, and obviously two of them as well just drained me of energy.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

You must have had like no energy.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah, I just like fallen asleep and stuff like seven o'clock every night, which was great then. I had no other kids, so I could.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah, so I know people that have more than one child are yeah, the second pregnancy isn't really like it.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

You just it has to just exist whilst you carry on doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:42

Do you have any like cravings or anything or no, not so much with the boys? Um I think I'm just tired and probably more hungry.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Um yeah, yeah, whereas with ED, I was pickled onion monster munch and salt within salt vinegar maquys. Pickled onion monster munch. Do you know it's my worst flavour?

SPEAKER_02 11:06

I'm a big girl. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I love pickled onion. Why was ice and apples with Liv.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Really? Yes, I never experienced any of that like she loves apples, though.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

I think we just ate so many pregnancy. I was like, You all like these, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Um, so you continued on in your pregnancy, and I guess um we're gonna come to the part where you I guess go into early labour. Um so you went into labour with the boys at 24 weeks.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

24 weeks plus four plus six twenty-four plus six, sorry, yeah. So one day away from twenty-five. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Take me back to that day. What did you do? What did that day look like for you?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

So it was actually it was a Monday, and I remember that weekend I'd not been feeling great. Um the Saturday I at the time I just had what I thought was just some blood. So I called um maternity assessment unit. Just got asked some generic questions. Does it look fresh? Have you got any pain?

SPEAKER_03 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

No, no, okay, that's normal. Everything's fine. Um I said I've been feeling unwell. Yeah, and that was just it. They were like, you know, if you start getting any pain or it becomes like fresh blood, then come in.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

So they but they didn't ask you to come in at that point.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

No, no, it was it just felt like a bit of a bit of a tick box, yeah, Saturday. Sunday so I feel better. Remember the Sunday night we went around our friends for some dinner. Um, and then the Monday I woke up was due to go into work, and I'd had some wake up with pain, like on and off pain, but I just thought, well I'm growing two babies inside of me, like stretching me.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

You do you get those like pain? Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

Yeah. So I just thought, okay, I'll have a day off, get some rest, have a nice hot bath.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

And uh for some reason, because this is pre-COVID, James was working from home.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

Okay, so he was at home.

SPEAKER_01 13:04

Yeah, I think he had something like that he had it due in on a deadline, so his boss had said to him, work from home to get it done. Yeah. So it just worked out well that he was there, and you know, obviously didn't know what was gonna happen, but it must be about 11 o'clock, and I remember laying in bed watching Orange is the New Black of all things.

SPEAKER_02 13:25

Great series. Yeah, cracking series. Yeah, if anyone's not watched it, great one.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Took me a long time to be able to finish it after all that happened. Really? Yeah, um, but I have gone back, it was a it was a hurdle for me. I was like, right, I'm gonna get over this and I'm gonna finish Orange is the New Black. It's triggering as it is, I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_03 13:40

It's a great series, it's great.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

Yeah, it is a really good series. Um, I was so close to the end as well, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

At least you went back and watched it.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

I did. It took a while, it took a couple of years, yeah. Um, but yeah, I suddenly just felt it's pop and it was my waters, and I was like Was it like the gush that everybody talks about? Or is it because I was laid down.

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Maybe it's not so much. There was definitely a pop. Yeah, I don't think it was just in my head. I had pop, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, there was definitely pop. And I just ran to the top of the stairs and I shouted James and I was like, Oh my god, my waters have gone. Yeah, um you knew did you know?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Yeah, it was like it wasn't just a little bit of water, it was some people say that you know, yeah, because sometimes you're weaning yourself, but mine was a badge, mine was a huge, you know, yeah, the whole thing about the movie.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

So yeah, yeah. So he got straight on the phone to the JR. They're like, you need to come in. So we're literally like, I didn't have a hospital hospital backpack, it was 24 weeks. No, it didn't even have any of that. So we'd only just been that weekend before to put a deposit down on car seats in a double buggy.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

So I didn't you mention it, was it your father-in-law or your dad? Was they not the nursery the day before? Yeah, it's James's dad, it was my father-in-law, so yeah, he painted the nursery that Saturday.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

They weren't even ready, like no, didn't put cots, nothing. So why wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_02 14:56

You know, some people have more prepared, I'm not. Yeah, why would you?

SPEAKER_01 14:58

Yeah, and I was only gonna get one cot to start because I thought they're gonna be small enough that they can share, yeah, absolutely. And then you know, it's I said it's expensive buying two of everything. It's expensive buying one of everything. Um, but yeah, so we threw some stuff together. Um I made James throw some stuff together, so I was like, Well, you're staying, yeah, like you know, and we literally were staying, but um were you having any pain at this point? I've been having the pain on and off all morning anyway, which obviously later confirmed the word track contractions, yeah. Um so yeah, it was still like on and off, but there was like a lot of time in between. Um, and then I called my mum on the way, so I remember always saying, She's gonna hate me for if she listens to this. When I give birth, like the last person I want there is you. I love my mum, but we clash, yeah, and I just knew she'd stress me out in a situation where I'm giving birth. Absolutely fair. Turns out the person I wanted there was my mum. I went into panic and we called her on the way and she got straight in the car, and then it's so funny because she came from Bistel, we came from Banbury. As we pulled into the JR, she was the car in front of us.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Oh my god. So um there didn't meet you.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, so we were literally threw the car in after QA just to get into the car park because back then the JRF car park is just a bloody nightmare in this. Yeah, so I think James just chucked it in like where the ambulances came in to start with.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

Um at that point, I don't think you cared, did you?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

No, no, and once my mum was with me, he went and moved the car, but um I obviously do the test to check that you're in active labour. I think it's checking for the um amniotic fluid. Yeah, um, yeah, and they confirmed it, it was labour, um, and it was straight in with steroids and magnesium. And if you've never had to experience magnesium, I hope you never have to. I know you mentioned it. Um it was like I was on foot fire. They passed me a sick bowl, and I was like, What's this for? They were like, You're probably going to be sick. And um, usually if you're expected to go into early labour, they can drip magnesium to into you slowly. Right, okay. But because mine was so like um we don't know what's gonna happen, like whether we can hold this off or not. It's basically to get it in you as quick as possible.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

And I remember at first feeling like I'd wet myself, and then my whole body just went on fire. And I didn't throw up, which I'm quite proud of. Um, but I did feel like I was gonna throw like literally pass out. Mum's there with this fan on me. James had gone out to phone his mum at this point, comes back in and he's like, What on earth's happened? Yeah, he's probably like, What is happening? Yeah, I've already done my head, like yeah, it was awful. And so were you were you in MAU or were you in like Labour Ward? They hadn't moved me to the delivery suite yet. I've done like assessment still um whilst they were getting a delivery suite available.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

And at that point, what did they tell you was the plan? What was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Hold off the labour for as long as they could. I wanted to get a second lot of steroids into me, which had to be 12 hours after the first lot.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Yeah. Um that's for like lung development, isn't it, as well? Because I remember I've had to have it.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Um, because she was early as well. Yes, yeah. Um, sorry, that's just my medical. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah. And the magnesium was for coating the brain for help with like cerebral palsy and things like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

So they were kind of doing everything they could to kind of manage at that time.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, and also prepare for the fact that they could be coming. They were obviously checking heartbeats. Um, they found both boys' heartbeats, they were checking them hourly. They obviously got me started on antibiotics in case there was an infection that caused the premature labour. Um yeah, checking heartbeats. That's we just kept monitoring really, and you know.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

And it was that sort of over that day.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, so it was I probably got to the hospital by midday, yeah, and then it all just kind of went from there, really.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

So and I guess at what point did they decide to take the boys out?

SPEAKER_01 19:08

After they realised that Charlie had passed away.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

That was when it was like, right, we need to speed this up now and get Jacob out.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

Yeah. And I guess so before that happened, obviously um they were doing the monitoring. At what point did they realise that Charlie's heart had stopped eating?

SPEAKER_01 19:26

So obviously it wasn't on the hour every hour, but it was if we're going off of that, yeah. It was probably around eight o'clock that they came in and said that his heart rate had slowed down, and that was a sign that the antibiotics were working. So obviously we were like amazing. Okay, amazing. Yeah, yeah, all still good.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Again, false hopes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yeah, um, and uh I like to tell myself they obviously didn't know, obviously, wouldn't have said that. But I guess it comes down to needing to be careful what you say.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

It is, and you know what as well, like as a mum that's you know going through something like that, you cling on to everywhere that they say, I completely Yeah, even the statistics, like they brought a doctor in.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Sorry, I'm going back now, but probably maybe six hours in, they had to bring a Niku doctor in to go through the statistics with you of survival at 24 weeks, which I can't remember, and I probably should have done my um research again before I come to you, but um they were basically very, very slim. So again, you hang on to my baby's gonna be in that statistic. Absolutely. Um so let's say nine o'clock, nine pm, they come into shop heartbeats again, and they can't find Charlie. Um they went and got the machine to actually do an ultrasound. Obviously, when they switch it on and it the blue shows the oxygen, um, because they thought maybe he was so low into the birthing canal now, that's why they couldn't pick up his heartbeat. And as soon as they put the ultrasound on and there was no blue running through it, I was like, right, okay. And then I don't remember the words that we can't find a heartbeat. It was all just very much like well, we know exactly what they can't find because I'm not hearing it. Yeah. They may have said it, but in that moment it was just like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, was James with you at that point as well?

SPEAKER_01 21:22

James was there, my mum was there. Oh yeah, it was just I don't yeah, it's I remember being told, but I think it was just so I was in such shock. Just everything.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Because I suppose as well, like you've kind of got a split emotion, you've got Jacob who's still okay. Yeah. As m as do you know what I mean, as much as he can be, and then now you're having to grieve the loss of Charlie.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

But again, also try and be a mum to Jacob who you know you do know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And at that point they literally were like, We're gonna give you a few minutes just on your own. They obviously needed to all go out and discuss the plan of action.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

So we had a few minutes and then the consultant came in after that and she was like, right, we need to get Jacob out.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

And she was like, here are your options. She was like, you can were those options. Those options where you deliver him naturally and we speed everything up. Or if I cut you open, I could cause a lot of damage. So when babies are that premature, I didn't know this until after it's one of the questions I asked post-birth when the consult when the consultant comes to see you. I just heard those words, it could cause a lot of damage, and we could put you in danger. And I just looked at James, and he was just like, mm-mm, no, no, don't want anything to happen to you. Like, um, so basically that premature they cut up towards the belly button.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Oh, so it's not like a traditional sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

No, they actually have to cut up. Um, and basically they could have caused damage to the point that I then wouldn't have been able to have any other children. So in that moment, I'm just like I'll push him out. And obviously I had to push Charlie out first, um, which was hardwelled. Um small babies are a lot harder to get out.

unknown 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Um, I know they always say that the bigger the baby, the easier they are. I don't know, I've never had a big baby, so yeah. Um but I can imagine that is somewhat true after having a very, very small, well two very small babies. Um it took a good couple of hours to get Charlie out.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

What time is Charlie born?

SPEAKER_01 23:44

He was born at 1124. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

And I think you said about Jacob was very quickly after.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, they said to me he could be hours or he could be literally any minute. So they just said as soon as you put out you need to push, just say. And yeah, just he came out in his waters. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's a really um rare thing to happen, isn't it? Yeah. They said it's the best case scenario for a premature baby. I guess because he's still got all of his like he's just protected, and and that's the thing, because they weren't in the same sack or didn't share the same placenta, and Charlie was the first twin, so he would have always been born first, his waters that went and it was him that took the brunt of Eddie infection. So that's why we lost Charlie, and Jacob obviously wasn't safe because he had a very long journey ahead of him.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Of course, yeah, but at that point you were probably like Jacob is okay. Yeah, you know, yeah. And I guess after the boys were born, where where did you go? Where did the boys go? Talk taught me through that, if you if you remember.

SPEAKER_01 24:54

Yeah, so obviously there was I can't even tell you how many doctors, yeah, midwives, neonatal, nurses, consultants, there was just so many people in there.

SPEAKER_02 25:07

It was probably very overwhelming for you.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

It was, but I was so I think I was just so out of it. Yeah, and all I'd had is gas and air because I couldn't have anything else. It was just because it was all so quick.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Yeah, yeah. I don't think it was even offered. Um yeah, so Jacob went off and I just remember saying to James, go with him, don't let him be on his own, go with him. So I had my mum, so I knew I wasn't gonna be left on my own. Of course. Um my brother and stepdad had come to hospital as well. Um so obviously, once I'd delivered the placenters and was a bit more um covered up and you know, it was okay for them to come in. A bit more dignified, should say. Um, my brother and stepdad come in as well, so we all just kind of had some cuddles with Charlie. Again, the the most surreal thing, but they're still your baby, and it's still, you know, it's um yeah, just felt like a whole like out of body experience, really. Just you find it hard sometimes to look back on it and remember it or no, it's one of the most vivid memories, like that whole day, like probably that whole time, it's one of the most vivid memories I think I'll ever have in my life, and I think I'll still be telling the story at 80 years old.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Do you know what you should share it, you know? Like like we said before, it's so important to talk about it, and I'm so brave for sharing your story. So when were you able to go and see Jacob?

SPEAKER_01 26:51

I don't remember the exact timings. I remember James coming back um with one of the neonatal doctors um and her telling me what they'd had to do. Which again, it's I say the story's all very vivid, there's certain aspects of it, I'm like, I yeah. I just remember looking at her and I was just again in shock. Um I know they had to do something with his lungs again and um I can't if they got him on a ventilator to start with, or whether he was just on normal oxygen. Um and that once he was stable as such, then I could go and see him. Yeah. Um and that it felt like hours passed. I had to have loads of blood stun in between as well, so they needed to test all my blood, test the placentas to try and determine what the hell had happened.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

What had happened.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

Yeah. Um and then we went James's mum and dad came. Because we just assumed that you know we'd lost Charlie and he would be taken away and didn't really know, but I suppose you don't know at the time. No, so we were like, Do you want to come and say goodbye to him?

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

So they travelled up at like middle of the night. Um, and I was still incredibly numb by the at this point. I think it was all the gas and air and just the shock. Like I hadn't cried.

SPEAKER_03 28:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Um and then I remember James' dad walking in and seeing Charlie, and he went to pieces. And that's what got me.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Um, yeah. So when um obviously all the family came, how long were you able to have Charlie with you? So we had him with us I think for a week.

SPEAKER_01 28:48

A week. So we stayed in the bereavement suite, I think for six nights maybe.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Um which is on level seven in the women's centre in the Jamad Cliff, and it was a godsund. It was um we had our own space, we had a room with an en suite, a little living room area and a kitchen, and it was just somewhere to go and kind of let it all out. Yeah. Um and they were like, you can have Charlie with you if you want, you know, because they have cold cots. Um we didn't want him with us, so that was our space to go. And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

But you could go and see him.

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Yeah, we could go see him whenever we w wanted, but actually it was he came to us more than we went to see him, so um they had screens. This is all they had at the time was screens that they would put round you. Um, because I don't know if you've ever been into any NATO unit, but it's all open plan. So you've got baby, baby, baby, baby basically. Um and then you've got babies opposite you as well. So the only way you get any privacy is by putting screens around you, and it was always like an unspoken thing of like when someone's got a screen round them, it's either it's like about a scenario like ours or they're losing their baby, so it was always like on the screens.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Um I suppose like Emma that that doesn't like block out sound or anything, does it? It's just no.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Yeah, so we um we actually had a um that's the the first neonatal nurse we had, which was the very next day. So the first nurse we had when I went to see Jake in the middle of the night Ali, she was amazing. And then the next morning they swap over shift at about seven um and it her name was Lizzie, and we still see her to this day, like she's she's just amazing. And um, sorry, I'm gonna go and um yeah, I'm fine. Um yeah, and she was just telling us everything we could do, we could have Charlie with us, and that there was a charity called I can't remember what they were called.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Um, you told me. Uh it's called petals.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

She told me about petals and also a charity that'll photograph okay um you with your baby. Again, I was like, I don't know how I feel about this. It's again you just never think you're gonna be in that situation. I think and anyone that's never experienced baby loss would probably think it's a really weird thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah, but till until you're in that moment, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And I was still really uncertain about it, so was James. We were the mindset of if we don't do it, we'll we will regret it. Yeah, um so we got photos of the boys, us. I I've only ever looked at them once, they're on a memory stick, safely away somewhere, yeah. And I don't know if I ever will be able to look at them again. You Jacob might want to look at them one day.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah, I was gonna say they're there if he would ever like to look at them, and it's okay that you don't want to do that. Do you know what I mean? You've got like memory edges in your brain, Emma. Like so don't ever feel bad that you've only used it once you know like it's there if you want to look. Yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah, like I'm glad we did it.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Because like I said, I have the option now, they're there.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Um, but yeah, we had um we had him at the hospital for a week. Um, as the days went on, we brought him down to the neonatal unit less and less. Um so and although he's in a cold cart, it still was like time is running out, we need to get him to the funeral home and start planning the funeral. So um, which we had to do all whilst making sure that Jacob was okay. Um we stayed at the hospital for two weeks and never went back home. So we had the pregnant suite for six nights and then they had these like shared flats. They've since got rid of them, but they were um questionable.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Do you mean like sort of like a hospital?

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Off-site accommodation.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

So you could be close to the hospital. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

But it wasn't like you won't McDonald. Um it was like basically I remember walking into them and the bed hadn't been stripped or anything, and I was like, Oh, what do we like to stay here? But I also don't want to be at home because anything goes wrong with Jacob. I remember calling my mum and I was like, Have you got a spare duvet, spare pillows? And we jumped over to my mum's and got it all because yeah, I needed to try and make it feel as homely as possible. Absolutely, um yeah, and it was rank. It was rank, it was like the shower. I suppose I didn't catch a baroka or something from it. Bloody athlete.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Just didn't birth out, and you're like worried about bloody athlete.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Yeah, it was it was horrible. Um but after two weeks, we were like, we've got to go home at some point. Yeah, um, you know, Jacob, I couldn't can't say he was stable because it was very, very up and down. Touching down. Um, you know, one minute he'd be ventilated, then he'd be breathing again by himself, so he could come off the ventilator and go on to high flow oxygen, and it was just it was constant back and forth, like 10 steps forward, 50 steps back. It was just it was a lot, and um the sounds of like beeps of the machines will stay with me forever. I suffer with tinnitus anyway, so it's a bloody horrible sound I um I remember I used to go and sterilise the breast pump in the kitchen, and in my head or ear I could still hear the machines going, yeah, and it wasn't actually the machines, it was just It's like white noise to you.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

Literally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Um yeah, so yeah, two weeks later we we went home.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

We went home.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Literally, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Um how did you feel going home? Um because you had your dog at this point, didn't you?

SPEAKER_01 34:52

Yeah, Harry was at my mum's how was Harry excited to see you? Oh yeah, it was yeah. We'd seen him a couple times, we'd gone back to my mum's, we tried to kind of leave a few times and go back to my mum's. I think the first one we went back was for a Sunday lunch. I if I was gonna leave for anything it was gonna be a roast dinner.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Um and to obviously to see Harry. Um so we didn't go and get him, we just went home first just to kind of see what it was like. Yeah. And obviously I'd start buying clothes and we hadn't bought a lot. Obviously, we'd put deposits down on things but not collected things. Um obviously the room had been done in terms of painted.

SPEAKER_03 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

Um I probably shouldn't have done it to myself, but I did, and I went straight to the clothes and just sobbed. It was it was hard. Um yeah, that was the bit I knew was gonna be hard. One of the first hurdles to kind of get through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:54

But once we were home, it was kind of you know, we slept in our own bed. As much as it was like we're so far away from the hospital, what felt like it got easier and easier. Um, we were quite fortunate that we only ever had one call to kind of say we need you to get here. Yeah. Um, and that was at like six in the morning. Like, you don't need to rush, everything's okay. You bet your ass we rushed.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, I mean I yeah, yeah, absolutely, I would do the same, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Um, but yeah, it was once we were home and got into a routine, and that's what we did. We it was trial and error because obviously traffic to the JR, as we said, is awful. So we actually used to have a bit of a morning at home. You know, James would go and walk the dog, we would, you know, just pack what we needed for the day because we were preparing for a shift at that hospital. Like we were going for like 12 hours. You the plan was we leave after rush hour traffic, and we come home after rush hour traffic.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Um were you both off work at this point on the year? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

So my maternity leave started literally the day I go f. There's no again, things have changed since, and there's now new legislations that um I think you get 12 weeks paid before your maternity leave kicks in now. Um really, yeah. Um, but when I was going through it, it was straight on that leave. Uh yeah, straight it was straight to get the six weeks SSP and Yeah, so where I worked at the time, I I hadn't been there long enough to be eligible for their enhanced package, which was three months pay. But they were so good, and they put me on the enhanced package.

SPEAKER_03 37:35

Um and they did like a little um stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah, it it was exactly that, and they did a little route round and everyone put some money in, and um it was actually the MD had signed a card and said, you know, I hope this helps towards some food or petrol and of course, because you've still got all your basic living, you know, your mortgage and life and things, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

Of course. Yeah, yeah, so that was probably like you know, the last thing on your mind, but again, it's still background in your head when you're thinking about that. Um so how long was Jacob in the NICU for?

SPEAKER_01 38:10

So he was out in total for I always get confused, it was 94, 96 days. Basically, we come out on the 23rd of January. 23rd of January and we went in on obviously the 21st of October. So we spent a lot of um Halloween, Bompeye Night, Christmas, New Year's Eve, I was praying he'd be out for my birthday, which is the 13th of January.

unknown 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

But it just didn't quite happen. But the main thing is we got him home.

SPEAKER_02 38:36

What was that day like?

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Surreal. Um he was obviously coming home on oxygen, which again you suddenly become this medical parent, and you have to go through like birth aid and oxygen training, you have it delivered to the house before the baby comes home. So you've got a cylinder upstairs, cylinder downstairs. I was just petrified of like putting it next to something and like blowing up my house, like just to your mind goes like the other you know, factor of a newborn baby.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Yeah, no one bloody knows what they're doing either, do they? You get home and you're like, What do we do with the baby?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, yeah. Um, and you still have to do like sleep assessments with them as well, with like you'd put them up to a machine at night, and then we had like an outreach nurse that would come to us. Um, but yeah, sorry, going back to the day we brought him home, it was it was another bittersweet day. Like obviously, we were so glad to be going home, but we'd been in this bubble for three months, and that was like our our safety now. Yeah, it was we had the doctors, the nurses, the consultants, yeah, and we had other parents that we would met that were going through the same thing that you know you have conversations that you never you'd have with people, and and no one will ever understand Niku like someone that's been through Niku. Um yeah, and it was just it was really sad like saying bye to all the you know the nurses that you've grown up. That's from the I mean some of them I was glad to do the bike off, but you know what said um same it was just it was a strange feeling, yeah. And we'd made friends in there that we were discharged before them, so obviously they were like, Oh, I'm so excited you'll go in, and you know, we're still friends to this day.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

And that's so nice that you've still kept in contact with them as well. Sounds like weird, but like you've kind of got that shared bond, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Definitely, yeah. Like we're a WhatsApp chat called Niku Mums and they're really original. But um, I'd be lost without them, ladies.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Like it's you know that's so nice that you've got the support as well.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Yeah, it's a different kind of health anxiety when you've got a premature baby. Like it's just it's you know, even to this day with Jacob nearly being seven, that kids get temperature and I'm straight back in neonatal.

SPEAKER_03 40:54

Really?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Like I panic and I'm hearing those machines and um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

I I can kind of I'm not gonna, you know, take it away from you, but Liver is a very poorly baby, and even now when she gets a temperature, I know it's viral, but I'm still at the GP like hundred percent. Tell me she's fine. Do you know what I mean? It's so silly, isn't it? Like Yeah. Yeah. Um and I guess um going back to Charlie after so he'd been with you for sort of the seven days, and now I'll jump back on a little bit here, so he'd been with you for seven days, and I know that you said you and James had to make like a decision of what you guys need to do.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

Um and I know that you had a funeral for him, and how talk me through that.

SPEAKER_01 41:36

So that was we had that on the 12th of November, so just shy of a month a month after.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:45

Um we just had f family. Um it's it's a hard one because no one had ever met him. So, you know, it's it just felt strange to us inviting everyone, like all our friends, all our friends. It was it wasn't there wasn't a life to celebrate. So it was it was kind of having to do what you need to do. Um and we, you know, made made the decision to have him buried. Yeah. Um so we always had somewhere to visit. Um and he's buried at the church, which is probably a ten-minute walk across the field to my house. That we used to walk through that village regularly with the dog, go and go to the pub. So we always thought it'll always be close and we can walk there. It's got harder and harder as we've got two kids to get there. So um, but the intention was to have him close. Yeah. Um, you don't know what to do at the time, what's right, you don't know whether I was gonna say, you must not know.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

There I you know, I don't think there is a right answer to it. It's just how you feel at the time and and what you guys want to do as parents. Kind of want to move over to James a little bit and shine the spotlight on him. I know you said, especially after um everything that happened, and when you bought Jacob in the first year, you and Jay um you and James dealt with your grief very differently. Talk to me about that.

SPEAKER_01 43:16

So James obviously he was distraught, it was a horrible time. Um his dealing with it was throwing himself back into the things that he loved, like football.

unknown 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Um it wasn't straight away, it took a while when you know he needed to get active again and get back into something rather than just constantly being back and forth to the hospital. Um, and that even came, you know, to watching football and you know it it can become quite tedious that at an incubator for twelve hours a day. So, you know, he'd be watching football and and I anyway, I was I was a bit I used to think, how can you do that?

SPEAKER_03 44:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Like my my grieving is sitting in silence in my own head, which is probably the worst thing to do. Um so in a way I kind of had a bit of a resentment towards him, you know, and when he went back to work and I was still on that leave and you know, it it took a while for me to realise that that all must have been very hard on him as well. Like having to go back to work, whereas I I had a year off. Yes, it came to bring up a baby, but it was still a time where I didn't have to face the reality of going back around people and obviously we had COVID amongst all of this as well. So you think in the way it was a blessing? COVID was a blessing and a curse because so Jacob came off the oxygen at the end of Feb.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

And then the March we went into lockdown. So we had him just shy of a month before we had to shut ourselves away again. Obviously, we'd just been shut away in our own little lockdown anyway.

SPEAKER_03 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:05

Um and we kept him away from a lot of people when he was on oxygen because he was still so vulnerable. Yeah. And then when COVID hit, it was well now we'd have to find an excuse for people not to come and see him and potentially pass him on loads of illnesses. But at the same time I lost ability to have anyone help me with him.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah, it's isolating. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

And I had some really hard days where I just didn't want a parent. I was, you know, in the thick of my grief. Um, you know, and it really didn't set in until we got home. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

You know, when you're in Nikku, you you're on adrenaline almost for those and you've got my bobby on the ball.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

Yeah, and your focuses on Jacob and getting him home and you know what you need to do to get him home. And when we got home it was like, wow.

SPEAKER_02 45:58

Those um few those sort of 96 days that happened over here and you're with Nikki with with Jacob, you got home and then you realised, oh shit, hold on, I've been so focused on the boys, now it's your time to think like process it.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

I think for both of us it took a it took it was definitely a delayed reaction to what happened. Um and then it just it was probably I'd say four or five months after, or we'd be home a couple of months. And again, James was getting back into the swing of work, working from home, so as we were in lockdown. Um and I just like you know, I couldn't cope with things like Jacob crying and not knowing what to do, and it's really overwhelming, yeah, like so overwhelming and like overstimulating as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:54

Especially when you're trying to be alone with your own thoughts or exactly that's quiet. Yeah, and then it's like and jumping back to like James, I felt very similar with Tottie, like, and you know, it's again this isn't spoken about, is we where we have these babies, men go back to work, they go back to their normal life, you know, and everybody rallies around the baby, and then everyone returns back to their normal life but you and you're kind of left to pick up all the pieces of what's happened, and I'm not saying that they're not there to support, but they're able to go to work and have a hot cup of tea and have a normal conversation, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, I found that really incredibly difficult. Yeah, and I've spoken about it, and I I'm sure you did as well. Like you say, James went back to his foot all the things he used to enjoy, but you probably forgot what you used to enjoy because you're so focused on Nikki and every experience. This is your new life now, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:39

You know, yeah, and I was a shell of myself, like I yeah, you know, I I'd suddenly gone through something I never thought I'd go through, and it just it just took a a while to really hit me, and then when it did it it hit me, yeah, and it went that first year was it was hard, it was really hard, and it was hard on both of us. You know, I won't ever take anything away from James, but like I said to you before we started this, that I had the physical side, yeah, I had that feeling of my body failed me.

SPEAKER_02 48:17

Um is that how you felt? Yeah, long time that guilt around that, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Yeah, and you know, you could tell me until you're blue in the face that it wasn't my fault. But I guess I felt like I didn't push enough, you know, when I called them at MAU that day, and you know, I'd do things oh I kept saying I'll do things so differently and but then also I was like, I don't ever want to do it again. Um it it was just petrifying as the thought of going through that again. And yeah, eventually I did well I was having counselling, I um I went to petals who I was recommended to go to. Um yeah, so I I started an initial six sessions with petals, which is what you get from the charity, yeah. Um, and then they kind of assessed you at the end of that to determine if you need more, and I was fortunate enough to be given 12 sessions. I had a little break because COVID happened and they went from face to face to over like Zoom or whatever. Yeah, Zoom, was it Zoom back then? It was Zoom quizzes, um yeah, and um that felt weird to me. Yeah, now it's the norm, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05 49:32

You sit in front of a camera and you do that I know but I was like, oh I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

But then I was like, yeah, I need to pick these up again because I'm not yeah I'm not coping.

SPEAKER_02 49:41

That the petals counselling ever was that a more like um like postpartum depression or like bereaving baby loss, baby loss, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:48

So they are solely a a baby loss counselling um charity. Um and yeah, I I had 12 sessions and we had I think we had one or two sessions together, me and James. It just wasn't for him, and that's fine. You know, I respected that. Yeah, um and it was so helpful, but I think where I had that break, that was where I was like counselling alone isn't gonna be enough. Isn't gonna be enough, yeah. I I just got to the place where I felt like I couldn't parent properly anymore. And you know, I'd wake up in the night crying and I couldn't get back to sleep for ages, and I'd have lots of not just intrusive thoughts about Jacob but also about Charlie.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:39

Um you know, that I spoke out with my counsellor and she was like, that's really, really normal. Um you know, I won't I won't go into detail because it's you know probably quite hard to hear, but yeah, I did have a lot of a lot of thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 50:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:56

Um and I'd get to the stage where I just I'd be in my car and I'd be thinking, well, I could just swerve off the road here and you know see what happens and I thought that you know that's not right. I remember sending a message to James once and I wasn't gonna talk about this, but I'm going to because it again it helps someone.

SPEAKER_04 51:19

I remember saying like I just want to go and meet with Charlie That's when I knew that I needed to go and get help.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

Yeah. You recognised it. So what um after you sort of I guess realised that who did you reach out to?

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I went to doctors.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

You went to the doctors and what did they um what did they do?

SPEAKER_01 51:51

They referred me to the perenatal team and put me on antidepressants, yeah. Which I was more than willing to take because I was having the counselling.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

So it wasn't like it was just like a first resort of like, yeah, just give me them.

SPEAKER_02 52:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

Um there's no shame in it though. No, and I've been on Certraline before, so I knew that it was something that worked for me. Um, you know, when you've been on something and you've got yourself off of something, it does feel like a bit of a step back.

SPEAKER_02 52:23

Um I always say though, Emma, like antidepressants are a bit like a scaffold, they just hold you up. Yeah. You do your work, but they just hold you up, and there's no shame around it. No. I've and I never got that numbness.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

I don't know about you, I never got that numbness of like, you know, I still felt all the emotions, yeah. But I could just manage them better. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:43

I I was I was very emotional. Yeah, yeah. I was in my f in my feels, yeah. That's what you would say. Yeah. So no, it never did it for me either, but I know it does, you know, and you kind of have to sometimes go through different ones to find the right one.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

And how did you feel after being on that? Were you? Did it did it seem to help?

SPEAKER_01 52:59

Yeah, definitely. I think it it just that combined with the counselling, yeah, and it's gonna sound so cliche and cheesy, but time.

SPEAKER_05 53:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Like time really is the best healer, like it's you know, that like I said, first year is it's the hardest because it's everything's a first, like and you're reaching that first year of it's been a year.

SPEAKER_03 53:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Um and obviously I have the whole I lost Charlie on the day Jacob was born. Yeah. So it's it's like the day is very bittersweet for us.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

I know you say around the month of October, you it's a very bittersweet time for you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yeah, and you get baby loss awareness week in October as well, literally the week before their birthday, the anniversary of Charlie's death, so it's all just like October, I I really do feel it. But also I don't hide from it because I will always, always, always talk about Charlie. And not for sympathy, not because you know, I want people to feel sorry for me. It's because all I can do for Charlie is talk about him.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Absolutely, and it's so important that you you do that. Yeah. And I know um, I think it was like he on his one-year anniversary, you decided to take yourself out of a plane.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Yeah. Did I read that right? Yeah, no, the one thing I said I'd never do in life is throw myself out of a plane. It just couldn't, honestly. Yeah, I couldn't do it now. I look back and I'm like, what was I thinking? You were just on tablets or was I crazy? Because but I just thought I I can get through anything now. I felt really like I think you remember Lisa, don't you? Yeah, yeah. She's always like, You're ad is nails, you like everything, but you're odd, you're ad. And then you didn't do it at all honestly. Yeah, I did it. I don't I don't know what came over me. I just thought of the money, like I raised a good amount of money. Great fruitful for Snap for the um Um Support for Sick, um premature newborns at the John Radcliffe. But yeah, Snap at the John Radcliffe. Um amazing charity. Like we've done quite a bit of fundraising for them. Um, we go back to their summer party every year, and again we see everyone that we met on the unit. We see some of the nurses and doctors, and it's just it's like a little family. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think if I can do anything from this, that's give back. Yeah. So um even Jacob's done a little fundraiser, a little fun run at Blenham Palace and raised some money. So you're awesome.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

You and Jose are both raised some money for it.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, James did a Tottenham Legends game. Did he? Yeah, Brackley Football Club. It's obviously football really.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Oh, you just have to say, honesty, James God, get a little bit of a bit.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

It's smart, like take something you love and make money from it. So he did really well with that. He went, I think he raised about five grand from that.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

Wow, yeah. Okay, well done, Jose.

unknown 55:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:56

Yeah. It made my skydive look abysmal, but you know. Hey, do you know what? You threw yourself out of plane. Yeah. Yeah, that is very cute. Yeah, and poor Jacob was poorly when we did that, so he he couldn't even be there as a mascot. The whole thing was for him and Charlie, and yeah, I remember that. He was really poorly blessed. My poor mum had to miss it as well. But he don't miss a football match now, though, does he? What Jacob or Jake, do you know what? He's not really that into football.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

Is James devastated?

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Devastated. Yeah. He played with James in the garden, but we've tried a few different places now, he's not having it.

SPEAKER_02 56:31

We took Olivia to Little Kickers. Yes. She lasted three sessions. Yeah. I think the instructors were like, get this girl out. She was wild. Yeah. Um, so I guess moving on to a bit of a light, more lighter note, you then got married, didn't you? Yeah. And you actually you touched on it earlier, you got married in the church where Charlie is buried. Yes. It's so I think that is so special that you did that because you know you could choose to get married anywhere. I think just having that there and him having him part of your day is so lovely. So I think that's just amazing.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Yeah. I always said I'm gonna get married in church because I'm not particularly religious, same. Um but I guess losing you know, you lose people in life, but losing a baby's giving me a different, not a religious outlook, but just an outlook where I try and find comfort. Um so if if I my comfort is thinking he's up in the sky somewhere, looking down on us, and that's you know, not necess necessarily in heaven, you say heaven because it's just easier to say, isn't it? But um he's definitely somewhere, and that's what we tell Jacob and we tell Edie and he'd be so proud of you. Oh thanks. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Um so you got married. What happened the week before your wedding? The Queen died. The Queen did die. Do you know what? I when I read your story, you said you wrote the day the Queen died is the day you found out you're pregnant. Yes. And the day the Queen died was the day of my Hendoo. Right. So we were like, honestly. So sad though, honestly sad times. But yeah, it was so funny. Like I was like, you remember exactly what happened on the day the Queen died, me too. Yeah, yeah. Two very different scenarios.

SPEAKER_01 58:13

Yeah, yeah. So Felix, we hadn't even started trying.

SPEAKER_02 58:16

I was gonna ask, yeah, talk to me around.

SPEAKER_01 58:18

No, I I'd come off a pill and I was like, right, we'll try after the wedding.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Um and then I took James away for the night. Um I think it was like our not our anniversary, yeah, it was our anniversary. Um I was thinking back to where we first ever stayed away, just somewhere it was just somewhere in Mount Keynes and um Yeah. Well yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Did you guys talk about um like obviously you know you said you wanted to you wanted to try again after the wedding? Did you feel like you were ready to try again? Or was that like a certain look?

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, I think for me to the want outweighed the worry. Um obviously there was a lot of anxiety and worry about what could go wrong.

SPEAKER_03 59:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Um but Jacob was obviously he he had a sibling, yeah, Charlie, but he didn't have a living sibling. So for a child that was supposed to have their twin brother with them and you know share this room and have a best friend, yeah, I couldn't not give him that, yeah. Um which was a big responsibility because it obviously that only fell on me. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 59:33

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:35

But I did it and I did it with a lot of force. I bought for my mental health through that entire pregnancy.

SPEAKER_02 59:46

I was gonna say that how did you how did you find that pregnancy?

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Um very different. So we we went for an early scan, which I never did first time round. You you have this naivety first time round where you just think everything's gonna be okay, I'll get to 12 weeks and I can tell the world. Yeah. Um second time around, we told everyone, as pretty much as soon as we had not everyone, but like family, yeah, of course, close friends, as soon as we we saw those lines, it was like, right, we need support. Yeah, you need your village.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

So we told people. Um, I told a few people before the wedding.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Um Did you have to hide your drink on the day?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:24

Oh my well, my made of one as Laura, she bless her. She had a cheap night because she was passing all my alcoholic drinks to her. She was battered, bless her.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Um she was gonna take one for the team. She's like, I'll help you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

I remember getting bought a triple vodka, like it does that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:43

Triple?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:43

Yeah. Yeah, they did that. Yeah, it was some family had over from Belfast, so I got nice. Yeah, so um I was like, well, what we're gonna do this, and I gave up to Laura, so that is contributing to the state of her that night. Um yeah, so we told some people because again, even I knew that that was gonna be hard having to hide. Yeah. Um had a couple of sips and uh the prosecco, I think, in the car journey to the reception. Um yeah, I thought that's the least of my worries, really, that part. But yeah, so the wedding obviously goes, and then we go on honeymoon. Um went to Greece. I say honeymoon, we took Jacob with us and James's mum.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

So honeymoon.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Um, which was nice, but I did not enjoy the all-inclusive at all because I was feeling very sick. Had a lot of food aversions. Um that's why I'm going back to my buffet. Yeah, yeah. It was like it was good food, it was a really nice, really nice place.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Um you're gonna go back this year, which is the one.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Yeah, so we're gonna go back next month. Um beautiful. And then once that was all over, there was no wedding blues for me. It was like, right, next, let's have a baby. So then it was like, right, let's get an early scam booked. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:09

Um was that a private one you did? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:11

Private one. And my main reason being I wanted to check how many babies there were. Yeah. Um, you know, I was there was two sides of how would we feel if it was twins again? And was there kind of a want for that? Yeah. Um but I won't lie, there was some relief when I saw there was only one baby. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

How did you feel when you were found out you're having a girl? Did you find out?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

You found out earlier. Um found out only about Jay's actually got it me as a Christmas present, um, the scan. Because I was like, even though the scan was to Christmas and New Year, I just wanted to know. You know, I just wanted to know before Christmas so we could share it with everyone at Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:52

Um, so yeah, we found out we were having a girl, um, which again, I was it would just made everything different. Because I think if it'd been another boy, yeah, in my head, I felt like could that be seen as a replacement? Yeah. Um, which it never would have been, but I just I think I would have carried some guilt with that. So yeah, when we found out we were having a girl, it just it just felt right. Um and yeah, that I was really monitored through that pregnancy. I had my cervix scanned regularly because I think that's what they kind of come to the conclusion was that my cervix where I'd had abnormal smears before, I'd had to have some cells removed, right, which naturally weakens your cervix. No one told me this when I had to treat them.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:42

Like why you went into early labouring. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

So they were checking my cervix to see if it was shortening, because if it shortened, then they would have put a stitch in. Yeah. Um, but they only check you up until 24 weeks, because at 24 weeks plus they count that's viability for life. So which didn't sit well on me when they told me that. I was like, You're telling someone that lost a baby at 24 weeks about viable for life, yeah. But um, no, everything went fine. I was being monitored. Just the challenge was me fighting for a c-section, yeah, because I did not want to ever experience labour again. Yeah. I didn't want to I didn't want to feel a contr um contraction ever again. I didn't want to feel waters break again. Obviously, there was always a chance that I could go into labour before my C uh my big C-section. Um but it was just my way of staying in control. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:39

Yeah, I knew you hear this from so many women as well. Like, no judgment at all. You want to do it, you do it. Yeah, if I was to ever have another baby, which I probably won't, I would have a plant C session all the way. Because again, it's a form of control, yeah, and it's something that you are in control of, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

You know the day your baby's coming, you know, again I knew what I could do with Jacob, I knew where he could go. Yeah, um yeah, because of course you have to plan childcare as well now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And even down to be able to have a shower, uh huh, put my eyebrows on. I didn't put a full face of makeup on, but the eyebrows need to be a little bit more than a lot of people. Um and just I lost so much the first time around. I never got to experience you know taking your newborn baby home and um just it was just so nice to have that control. Um But you said that you had to fight Yeah, so I remember seeing the consultant, and it just happened to be the consultant that delivered the boys. Um, and she's I said to her about I wanted an elective C-section, and her response to me was Um we should probably try and fix your birth trauma first. So I'll refer you to a psychiatrist.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:48

What?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yeah, and I thought you're not fixing this birth trauma, like it's it's not fixable unless you can bring back what I lost. Yeah. Absolutely. Um Yeah, so I took the psychiatrist like some free help, I'll take it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:05

At the end of the day, you're a mummabar that's four, you're gonna fight this in the end, do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Yeah, so um I remember the first session with the psychiatrist, she's like, So do you know why you've been referred to me? And I was like, Yeah, because you're gonna try and talk me out of a C section. And she was like, Not at all. During that first session, she was like, Yeah, I'm really I'm comfortable. Um that you know what you're talking about, you know why you want it. Yeah. Um she stayed with me through the whole of my like I had her from about probably about 26 weeks. She did a whole birthing plan with me, she let me know everything that I was I could ask for that I didn't know, and that was James to stay with me the night after my C-section and have a private room.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

Um and you did you manage to get that?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:47

I got all of that, yeah. Um I just I couldn't face him leaving me, and I know a lot of women have to go through it, but the thought of being alone after that, yeah, how triggering that would have been after what I went through first time around.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Um to make sure that you had everything in place and everything was agreed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:06

And also my birthing plan was as soon as you feel I can go, get me the hell out of here. Like I want to get home and I do not want to be in a hospital. Um I left the next day. Did you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:18

And um how much did the easy weigh when she was born?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

She was seven pounds seven.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:24

And what how many weeks were you when you had your C session?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:27

39 plus four, so basically, like yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

How did it feel when you like got to bring her home?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:33

Oh, it was amazing. It was and bringing her home to Jacob as well, it was lovely. Yeah, and it just we didn't tell him, I said to my mum, whatever you do, do not show him any photos. Like we just wanna keep it a surprise.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Obviously, he knew that it was a baby and mummy's done.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:47

Yeah, but we didn't tell him that I'd gone to help her or that yeah, yeah. So it was That must have been so special. Yeah. Do you know the weirdest thing? So although she was born in the morning, so Charlie was born at 1124, Jacob was born at 1128, and Edie was born at eleven twenty-six. Smack the bang in the middle.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:10

Whoa, yeah. That's giving me goosebumps.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:13

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:14

How strange.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:15

I know. And again, it was different between a pm, but it was still just the same, yeah. I remember when they said oh she'll be here soon. I said to James in the um theatre, I was like, what time is it? Because I thought she was gonna end up being born the same time as Charlie. How yeah, 1126. They smack bang in the middle of her brothers. Oh, and she was covered in um they call them stalk, what do they call them? Stork bites. And they say that it means they're kissed by an angel. She had about three or four over her.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

So take comfort in that. Oh, I did, yeah, yeah. We um Olivia had one on the back of her neck, yeah. Obviously, she was named after my cousin Livia who bought her, and we always said that that was her.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

How how's life now with the kids? Mental? Crazy?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:01

Oh god, yeah. Yeah, it's just carded, isn't it? Yeah, I'm like in the trenches. Like it is just and you think like as they get older, it's gonna get easier, but it just comes with new challenges.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:14

It just how old are the kids now? How old is Jacob?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

So Jacob will be seven in October, and Edie's literally three in the 9th of May.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:22

So we actually had a discussion before we started recording that girls are harder, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01 1:09:27

Oh my god, I think secondborn and girls as well. Like, everyone's always like, Oh, she's your second, isn't she? And obviously, I know she's my third, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

People don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

I'm like, yeah, she is, and they're like, Yeah, they're wild. Like, like I actually I'm scared of her.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:40

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Olivia petrifies me. Yeah, petrifies me.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:44

So I'm so glad that I've met someone that actually feels the same.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Oh, yeah. If I'm in the shop and she wants something, I'm like, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

Yeah, so it's meltdown. Olivia, I'm like, yeah, you wouldn't done it. We were in Boston Twitter yesterday, kind of picking up some beans for Elaine, my mum, and she picked up these cookies, and I was like, sure, have what you want. I don't care.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:03

Jen's always like that's why she's like, she is because you let her get away. I'm like, yeah, I just don't want the meltdown. I choose my battles. Yeah, you've got to, yeah. You've got to. Yeah. But it's good, life's good, it's you know, we're glad that you you guys are doing okay, and you've got your little family now.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

Yeah. And you you celebrate Charlie every time. Yeah. Yeah, I know you talk about him a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

Yeah. And Jacob's aware of his brother and stuff, which I think oh well Jacob's so aware, he talks about him so much. Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:32

Um do you find that hard?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:34

Or do you something I never prepared myself for?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

Um he's been upset quite a lot about yeah. I always just thought it would be my own grief I'd have to deal with. I never thought it'd be something he would be impacted by. But um I've you know, I've told the school and they've had conversations with him because I sometimes don't know how to answer them without getting upset.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:53

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

So um and if he can talk to someone like neutral and impartial. I remember going to school and I was like, Do you have a counsellor? Like thinking my child needs therapy, like I just I didn't know they're like, Don't worry, we've got you, like we've got I can't remember what they call the team, but I thought, oh that's so lovely that you know they recognise that kids go through loss as well and you know different shapes and forms.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:16

And how how ashamed doing?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

Yeah, he's good, he's doing really well. He's yeah, he's again he'll always talk about Charlie, things he does, he does for Charlie and and the and the kids and is a good dad. He's amazing, he's so hands-on, so I'm so lucky when I you know you look at some people and you think, Oh, bless you. Yeah, yeah. But um, no, he is brilliant with them and he'll recognise when it's getting a bit too much, and he'll he'll just take them both out for the day, and I'm like, You're braver than I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

Honestly, isn't it lovely? Yeah, it's so nice just to have an hour to yourself, isn't it? Because you just don't get it anymore.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

Yeah, just getting everything done when you work as well, like he works, he works hard, and but he still has the time to you know put them to bed and you know, play football with Jacob after he finishes work and it's just nice. He's he is the best dad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:11

I'm glad that you've got like the support and like you say with your parents and James's parents and your friends and stuff. So I feel like you've really got your village.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:20

So I guess any on a bit of a a lighter note. Um I always ask everybody Yeah, if you could go back to the early days of motherhood, where that would that be with Jacob and Charlie or Reedy, what would you tell yourself?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

With obviously Jacob and Charlie. I would just tell myself to give it time and feel the feels and it's okay to struggle um and it will get easier. And to lean on people, I think you know, if people want to cook you dinner, bring it around, take that dinner. If people want to clean your house for you, let them clean your house. Um, there's no shame in that. I I learnt a long time ago to accept help, um, in whatever form it comes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Oh my, gosh. I don't know what to tell myself because I'm still in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Still in the thick of it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:18

Still in the thick of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

Still in the thick of it. I know, it's yeah. I think that you just said though, the whole taking time and accepting help. It's something that I didn't do for a long time either, so I kind of get it, because you don't do you just kinda over all yourself a beast of woman. Yeah. But at some point you can't do all that. No, you can't. Yeah. Um I'm so grateful you've come on. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming on. I'm so proud of you and your story. Um and at the end, I'm gonna um add on to our story about any questions that people want to ask. So if any come in, I will send them your way and hopefully you can answer them. Yeah, of course. Um but yeah, thank you so much. Okay. I'm your host, Ian, and thank you for listening to Motherhood Honestly.